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The Big Office and True Love Part One

The Big Office and True Love Part One

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30Rock/BadgerAndBear

 

I started watching 30 Rock in December 2007.  I watched all of Season 1 in a weekend right before Christmas and caught up on Season 2 soon after that...and have been obsessed ever since.

I'd just like to state that I did NOT start watching with Jack and Liz in mind as a romantic ship.  I wanted to watch the show because of the cast (I loved Tina and Tracy on SNL and liked Alec) and because I had heard how funny and great it was.  I never imagined how great the chemistry Alec and Tina share on the show would be.  In fact, the idea of Jack and Liz kissing on the show actually kinda weirds me out a bit.  I'm not into them as a ship because they're "hot" together, but because their characters fit.  In other words, they are M.F.E.O. =  Made For Each Other.  The show has made me think that.

"No, never gonna happen. They have great chemistry, I think, but in the writers' room we always talk about it as Lou Grant and Mary Tyler Moore, or Han Solo and Princess Leia. Lot of chemistry, never happened." 

- Tina Fey in July 2007, on the possibility of a romance between Jack and Liz 

Of course, the problem with that quote is Tina's apparent lack of Star Wars knowledge.  I'll give her Lou Grant and Mary Richards never happening (however, the parallel of their working relationship is spot on), but Han and Leia?  I guess Liz is the Star Wars brain of her personality because everyone knows that Han and Leia are THE romance of the Star Wars series (sorry Anakin and Padme', people care more about your daughter's romance than yours).  Big nerds know that in the Star Wars Expanded Universe that follows the story post-Return of the Jedi, Han and Leia get married and have children.  To say Han and Leia "never happened" is just flat out wrong.

In another interview, Tina said Jack/Liz is a mix of Mary Tyler Moore and Lou Grant and Han and Leia, which I find interesting because that's exactly it.  It's a working relationship (Mary Richards/Lou Grant) that turns into a romantic relationship (Han/Leia).

Interviewer:  That relationship that you have with Alec, on the show is great.
Tina Fey:  Oh, thank you.
Interviewer:  How would you describe what your characters' feelings for each other are?
Tina: Fey  Well, we tried to define it.  We said, you know, what is it?  It's um...we've decided it's somewhere between, um, Mary Tyler Moore and Lou Grant and Han Solo and Princess Leia.

 


If you really wanted to hit down the idea that Jack and Liz were ever going to hook up, Han and Leia aren't exactly the couple you should use.  In fact, they are the complete opposite.  They're the "I love you. I know" couple. 

 

Liz dressed up as Princess Leia four Halloweens in a row ("The Source Awards") and does it to get out of jury duty in "Believe in the Stars" and "The Funcooker". 

Jack has similarities to Han.  In "MILF Island", Jack says "I know" when Liz confesses to the "Class A Moron" and "he can eat my poo" comments much like Han says "I know" to Leia in "Empire Strikes Back" after Leia confesses to loving him.  Tracy seems to describe Jack when he explains Han in "Succession" as "he acts like he doesn't care, but he does". 

Jack is Liz's boss, much like Mary and Lou's relationship on The Mary Tyler Moore Show.

In a more recent interview at the 2008 Emmy Awards, Tina had a different take on Jack and Liz, one which seemed to indicate that she did recognize a spark of sexual tension with Jack and Liz...

Ryan Seacrest:  It seems like there's sexual tension a little bit, and it's growing between Jack and Liz on 30 Rock. 
Tina Fey:  I think you're right, but I think we're gonna fight it forever, but it's definitely under there.
Ryan Seacrest:  Walk right up to the line and not cross it?
Tina Fey:  Right up to the line. 


So, was Tina bluffing this whole time about Jack/Liz never going to happen or did she just warm up to the idea over the course of time?  Not sure exactly, but Jack/Liz has been set up to become romantic since Season 1, so I have to believe she's always known something :)

Supercouples

Like being tied to supercouple Han/Leia in interviews, Jack/Liz have also been linked with supercouples within the show.

In "Do-Over", they are associated with Mr. Big/Carrie from Sex and the City as well as Luke/Laura from General Hospital.

The teaser shows Liz walking through New York City in a Carrie Bradshaw-looking attire and gets approached by a man in a limo (much like Mr. Big would do to Carrie), set to music sounding very similar to the music from Sex and the City.  Just for fun, I'll also mention that Mr. Big's real name is revealed to be John, which is technically, Jack's first name.  

                       
 

Liz mentions a "weather machine" during the fake soap opera she acts out with Jack.  During the 1980s on General Hospital, Luke and Laura are involved in a plotline to stop a man from taking over the world with his weather machine.  The reason I find it so interesting that Jack and Liz are associated with Luke and Laura is that the term "supercouple" was coined because of the intense interest in them

Both Mr. Big/Carrie and Luke/Laura get married.

 

In "The One With the Cast of Night Court", Tracy helps Kenneth bring together Harry Anderson, Markie Post, and Charles Robinson (interestingly enough, looking like the trio of Alec, Tina, and Tracy) back together to reshoot the Night Court finale in order to have closure for the great love story between Harry and Christine, which originally, went "untold". 

 

In Tracy and Kenneth's "masterpiece", Harry and Christine end up getting married, finally giving America what it wants. 

 

Jack and Liz are paralleled to Harry and Christine because at the end of the episode, we find them actually at Night Court.  Liz goes to bail Jack out and they walk out together, ending in the 80's TV trademark fashion, complete with freeze-frame and Night Court theme music.

Because the episode seems to suggest that Jack/Liz = Harry/Christine, it seems to foreshadow marriage (more on that below) and reassure the audience that we will get a happy ending (and possibly, a Jack/Liz wedding) to 30 Rock. 

Tracy talks about how he is going to play Mac in the upcoming Night Court movie and Mac is Harry's Best Man, which could be foreshadowing that Tracy will be the Best Man at Jack and Liz's wedding.

Jenna played Night Court character "Sparky Monroe", who is the Maid of Honor at Harry and Christine's wedding, which could be foreshadowing of Jenna being Liz's Maid of Honor at Jack and Liz's wedding. 

Harry = Jack = Groom
Christine = Liz = Bride
Mac = Tracy = Best Man
Sparky Monroe = Jenna = Maid of Honor

 

In "The Problem Solvers", Liz poses a scenario to Jack regarding being Superman:

Liz:  You can have the powers of Superman for an entire year, BUT, you can only have one sexual partner for the rest of your life.
Jack:  Two questions:  Must I live by Superman's moral code and will the sex woman get older?
Liz:  Yes and yes.
Jack:  Forget it.  No deal. 

Was Liz testing Jack on monogamy?  Is the sex woman, Lois Lane, in this deal?

Jack has been connected to Superman in "Christmas Special" ("fly there without a plane") and "The Bubble" (he used to have a "Superman chest") and if that's the case, does that make Liz his Lois Lane?  She is a writer with the double L initials and they are co-workers (well, Lois works with the Clark Kent persona) who, eventually, fall (or, at least, that's the way it's going with Jack/Liz) in love and get married.

Jack is portrayed as a superhero in some animated online episodes in which he turns the world around to go back in time like Superman does in Superman: The Movie.

The L.A. Times suggested that Jack and Liz were "Lucy and Ricky meet Oscar and Felix".

For Jack and Liz to be tied to these "supercouples" makes them a supercouple.

Fairytale Ball + Princess Analogies = Happy Ending

On the audio commentary for "Black Tie", Tina Fey makes a comment about how Jack/Liz is never going to happen, which is a little confusing because the episode very obviously connects Liz to Vivian from "Pretty Woman", making Jack her Edward as well as making her a Princess (through the Snow White/Cinderella debate with Jenna) and him her Prince Charming.  It's worth noting that in "Do-Over", Liz says "please be charming" to Jack in hopes of impressing Bev, the adoption agent. 

Funny thing about "Pretty Woman" is that in the very last scene, Edward gives Vivian a fairytale.  He (as Prince Charming) comes on his horse (a.k.a. his limo, which just happens to be a white like a white horse), climbs the tower (a.k.a. her fire escape) with his sword (a.k.a. his umbrella), and reaches his princess (who Edward refers to as "Princess Vivian").  Even though "Pretty Woman" ends with the gayest line in the history of cinema ("she rescues him right back"), it does make things interesting for 30 Rock with Jack and Liz in the Edward and Vivian roles (tying them into another supercouple) because "Pretty Woman" has a fairytale happy ending. 

 
    
 

Liz is a Keeper:  The Wedding Anvils.

"Black Tie":

Jack:  This is my live-in girlfriend, Lemon.

Bianca:  Congratulations, John.  She's much sharper than the last girl you had.  What was her name?
Jack:  Beyonce'.
Liz:  And, unlike the rest of Jack's girlfriends, I have all my original parts [points to her nose and breasts].
Bianca:  Oh...hang on to this one, John.  She's a keeper.
Liz:  Mmm...yeah...I'm a keeper.


"Black Tie" is, essentially, Jack and Liz's first date (even though, Jack tries to play it off that it's not).  He asks her out.  She says yes.  They both get dressed up, including her wearing jewelry he brings for her to wear.  There is food (much to Liz's delight) and dancing.  He walks her to her door.  There's an almost kiss good-night. 

 

While Jack and Liz are at the party, Jack goes into detail about all the women he has dated and Bianca even goes into the fact that Jack has had a lot of girlfriends, but who are mostly, super beautiful air-heads.  The interesting thing to me is that Bianca singles out Liz as being an exception to the usual girl Jack dates.  Liz is different.  Liz is special.   

And...Liz is a "keeper"?  As in permanent?   And, according to Bianca, Liz can "actually make him happy".  

Bianca even takes it a few steps further, asking about marriage and speculating that they will have a baby, which just happen to be two parts of Liz's "having it all" goal.

Bianca:  Are you going to marry Jack?
Liz:  Uh, I don't know.  We've talked about it.
Bianca:  I can tell from the way he looks at you that you're serious.  He's going to get you pregnant right away.  I'm sure.  A little late in life baby he can parade around Nantucket.  The whole thing makes me want to vomit.


Jack and Liz play the roles of boyfriend/girlfriend in front of his ex-wife and in order to prove to him that Bianca doesn't like it, Liz puts on a fake engagement ring and tells CrazyBianca that Jack proposed to her.  I don't think it needs to be said, but just for good measure, Jack and Liz pretending to be engaged could end up being chock full of foreshadowing, especially, since in Season 2, Liz actually buys a wedding dress.  

                
 
 
                

"Seinfeld Vision":


Liz [talking about wedding dress]:  It really is nice, isn't it?
Wedding Dress Saleswoman:  You should buy it and save it for your wedding.
Liz:  No, no, I'm single.  Doin' great.
Wedding Dress Saleswoman to Liz (in wedding dress):  But, don't you think you will ever get married to anyone?
Liz:  You are tryin' to make a sale.  I know how this works.
[Jack calls Liz on the phone.]

Almost right after the woman asks Liz if she will ever get married to anyone, Jack calls Liz.  He's the answer to that question about the man Liz will marry.

In "The Ones", Liz goes with Jack to pick out a ring for Elisa when the jeweler behind the counter mistakens Liz as the one who will receive the ring.  Liz is once again (in addition to "Black Tie") associated with being Jack Donaghy's fiance', even to the point of wearing a ring.



By the end of the series, I suspect Liz will end up married and seeing as how Jack was her fake fiance' and is the one a season later who helps her up in the wedding dress and takes care of her train, I'm willing to bet he will be her real husband, which will allow her to "join Team Donaghy" as Jack suggests she do in "Retreat to Move Forward". 

"Mrs. Donaghy":

Liz: Jack is not my boyfriend. He is dot dot dot my husband.

One could argue that the wedding anvils were paid off in "Mrs. Donaghy" with Jack and Liz accidentally getting married, making her Elizabeth Lemon-Donaghy.

Everyone sees it, but them.

Often in stories, there is a trope used wherein the main couple will be clueless of how perfect they are for each other, while others around them see it right away known as Everyone Can See It.   

This kind of writing formula is why I'm still confused as to why Harry and Hermione didn't end up together in the Harry Potter series because Cho Chang, Viktor Krum, Rita Skeeter, Ron Weasley, and even Molly Weasley saw something between them and Harry and Hermione acted like it was no big thing. At least, Rowling admitted that the story could have ended with Harry and Hermione. It's good to know that tropes and writing formulas do hold up, even if the writer chooses a different ending.   But, I digress...

There are TV Tropes that go along with this idea, wherein other characters suspect something is going on with a couple and the couple insists there isn't. 

"She is not my Girlfriend"
"Just Friends"
"Will They Or Won't They?"

These tropes can result into a "Relationship Upgrade", which I think will happen with Jack and Liz in the last season of 30 Rock, maybe even down to the very last episode.

Bianca sees something between Jack and Liz.  So much that it makes her Want-To-Sit-On-A-Knife-Jealous.  Bianca even asks Liz if she is going to marry Jack.

Colleen thinks Liz is "the one" and "perfect" when she first meets her in "Hiatus".

Jenna interprets Jack asking Liz to go to the party in "Black Tie" as a date. 

Heck, Kathy Geiss, Jack and Liz's "boss", who never speaks, enthusiastically, screamed "Kiss!  Kiss!  Kiss!" (the mute who becomes the voice of the audience/writers?), hoping Jack and Liz would do that very thing in "Do-Over", after witnessing the fake soap opera in her office.

Elisa, Jack's fiance' in Season 3 calls Jack and Liz's relationship "too weird not to be sexual".

Cerie, Liz's assistant, says (in "Secret Santa") that Jack and Liz remind her "of that bantering couple in that old movie...Meet the Parents".

Bianca, Jack's ex-WIFE sees it.  Colleen, Jack's MOTHER can see it.  Jenna, Liz's BFF can see it.  Kathy Geiss, Jack and Liz's one-time BOSS can see it.  Cerie, Liz's ASSISTANT can see it.  Elisa, Jack's FIANCE' can see it.  Now, it's just up to Jack and Liz to figure it out for themselves, which I suspect won't be until the last minute

For the continuation of this essay, please go to Part Two.

  • I LOVE this! It was worth the wait and I will def re-read when I am not so tired. You should def update this as the season progresses. Me thinks thi season will have lots of Liz/Jack goodness!!
    • Glad you enjoyed it!

      I added some stuff about The Hair, so that's something new for you :)

      I think this'll end up being like my bracelet stuff (which I need to update) and I'll add as the series progresses.
  • Get ready for a long post because commenting on this definitely trumps writing an essay on alternative dispute resolution.

    This was so great to read! I love all the stand-ins and parallels and the comparisons with Han & Leia which I have no knowledge of having not seen Star Wars.

    I feel Liz is more Chandler than Monica though. Using humour as a self-defence mechanism (which I think Jack has alluded to before) or in awkward situations (and usually failing miserably) and being pretty hopeless in her love life. But Liz does have Monica's drive and passion for work similar to Jack. Jack is really quite the Monica, where he coaches Liz on how to deal with relationships (like how Monica guides Chandler to not be so socially-retarded) but they both support and more importantly understand each other in times of need. Conversely, I never felt that Ross/Rachel had a common understanding like what Chandler/Monica had and they didn't start out as friends who gradually realised they were M.F.E.O, which you pointed out.

    Floyd for me never seemed to really care like how Jack cares for Liz. Also I think a passion to do what they love is something that really connects Jack and Liz, which Floyd clearly does not have. He seems more like he is compelled to run in the rat race rather than Jack who probably is the person who created the race so that he could win it.

    I absolutely love the Jack and Liz are parents who have to deal with their crazy kids idea because it's so true. And like parents they tend to lapse into childish moments occasionally while the other pep-talks them out of it.

    I started watching 30 Rock in March 2007 (because I was super bored from exam prep) and my first episode was Black Tie and it really was Jack/Liz's relationship that made me want more. Despite all the comparisons to other couples, I feel that Jack/Liz are rather unique, especially since it's so rare that a tv couple who have so much crazy chemistry hasn't hooked up yet after 2 seasons and Tina and the show deserves mad props for keeping up the creative energy such that they do not need to resort to shark-jumping.

    I am super excited for this season because I get the feeling we will get major shippy goodness at the end of the season (and also Liz's high school reunion episode and well probably next week's too) after both of their relationships with other people fail (hilariously) and they hopefully start to realise that their perfect companion has been with them all along.
    • "Get ready for a long post because commenting on this definitely trumps writing an essay on alternative dispute resolution."

      I LIVE for long posts!

      "I love all the stand-ins and parallels and the comparisons with Han & Leia which I have no knowledge of having not seen Star Wars."

      Tina cracks me up for comparing Jack/Liz to Han/Leia because I'm like, "you've SEEN Star Wars, right?" :) I mean, it's just silly to say they're never going to happen and then continually compare them to the biggest romance in the Star Wars story (Anakin/Padme doesn't even hold a candle to Han/Leia, IMO).

      Interesting points about Monica/Chandler.

      "I never felt that Ross/Rachel had a common understanding like what Chandler/Monica had and they didn't start out as friends who gradually realised they were M.F.E.O, which you pointed out."

      Well, Ross and Rachel DID start out as friends and had to realize their feelings for each other (although, that was more one-sided with Rachel b/c Ross already knew how he felt). Ross/Rachel were set up in the Pilot with her running into Central Perk in the wedding dress after Ross says he wants to be married again (hello, wedding dresses as foreshadowing), so in that way, they are totally M.F.E.O.

      I think Monica/Chandler could understand each other better than Ross/Rachel b/c IMO, Ross/Rachel were sort of opposites attract. He was the nerdy guy who liked dinosaurs and she was the beautiful girl who shopped at Bloomingdale's, who was way out of his league.

      Both had different dynamics, but were essentially, friends who became more by the end of the story.

      "I think a passion to do what they love is something that really connects Jack and Liz, which Floyd clearly does not have."

      100% Agreed. If someone is unwilling to be okay with that, they can never be with Jack or Liz, which is why they are perfect for each other.

      "He seems more like he is compelled to run in the rat race rather than Jack who probably is the person who created the race so that he could win it."

      Can I just say that is probably the most brilliant description of Floyd vs. Jack? Well said.

      "And like parents they tend to lapse into childish moments occasionally while the other pep-talks them out of it."

      Yes!

      "Tina and the show deserves mad props for keeping up the creative energy such that they do not need to resort to shark-jumping."

      Going by Tina's Secrest interview at the Emmys this year, I think Tina & Co. are very aware of how they need to handle Jack/Liz's relationship in order to keep up the energy without jumping the shark and that's why they'll "walk right up to the line", but not cross it...meaning, they won't GO there with Jack/Liz until they CAN, which will probably be very late in the story. Tina saying they'll "fight it forever"? Yeah, that's prolongment at its finest.

      "after both of their relationships with other people fail (hilariously) and they hopefully start to realise that their perfect companion has been with them all along."

      I think so, too. I think the point of all of their relationships is to slowly show them what they REALLY need, which is each other. I'm looking forward to seeing how these other relationships pan out and what it shows us as the audience looking in. Jennifer Aniston's guest-appearance should be the first of the fun, with her seemingly, trying to BE Liz.

      Thanks for reading and commenting! I always love to know other people's thoughts :)
    • (no subject) - regalish - Expand
  • It's good stuff, but a bit much to take in all at once. The romantic suitor parallels were pretty clear, but the Princess Lea Han Solo thing is new to me.
    • I know...I kinda crammed a lot in. It was hard for me to figure out what I wanted to hit on because there's a lot of stuff (which is a triumph for the show's writing staff to include so many layers).

      Tina mentioned the Han/Leia stuff a lot, which I found so funny. It was like, "do you know what you're saying?" :) I think she did, heh.

      The Han/Leia thing is also why I found Liz to dress up as her so hilarious. At some point, I'd love to see Jack as Han.
  • This was awesome. I love how you broke down and analyzed every bit of the show.
    I also adore that photo of Tina and her husband. The first time I saw it at EW all I could think was "awwww!" She looks so smitten. :)
    • Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!

      I tried to break it down without being overwhelming or confusing.

      Don't you love that picture? It's very cute. :)
  • This... was absolutely brilliant. You actually pointed out quite a few things that I had never realized before (like the triangle shots and the Jack/Liz musical theme), and I live for Jack/Liz subtext. So, very well done. From now on, if anyone wants to debate me on the Jack/Liz OTPness, I'll just steer them here.
    • I also watch Smallville (God have mercy on my soul) and Smallville uses triangles a LOT, so that way of thinking has infected the way I see things on other shows.

      I'm not sure if that musical theme is intentional, but it just always seems to come up during Jack/Liz scenes. I'm going to try and keep an eye on it to see if that theory stays consistent. I wish I could just ask Jeff Richmond to find out, but that's virtually impossible :)

      "if anyone wants to debate me on the Jack/Liz OTPness, I'll just steer them here."

      Oh, the pressure :)

      Well, I just wanted to lay out the reasons I think that Jack/Liz is going to happen for my own sanity. It's gotten to a point where if the show ends WITHOUT them as a couple, it won't make any sense to me.

      Thanks for reading!
  • longest read of my life, but i read every word!

    wow.. i realised that I dont pick up anything when watching 30rock.. my brain just goes into a chant of "jack/liz, weee!" lmao.

    that was great.
    • I like to analyze and look deeper into storylines and relationships, so I'm a nerd like that.

      Thanks for reading, despite the long read :)
  • (no subject) - darkmission
  • I never really thought about their father/mother role even though it's obvious!
    I really enjoyed reading this, thanks for sharing.
  • So... true, so wise.
  • wow wow wow. i've completely had most of these thoughts before, but the way you organized them is <3..
    i also think liz and jack are meant to be..though the idea of them kissing on the show doesn't weird me out..=)
    • I'm pretty sure I'm just reiterating everything everyone else already recognizes, but I wanted to write it down for myself because I like to analyze stories and characters.

      Them kissing doesn't weird me out now as much as it did when I first started watching. I would never have imagined Tina and Alec to have such great chemistry like they do before 30 Rock.

      I think seeing their characters together, growing into each other, has made me okay with Jack and Liz kissing in the future because there would be something more substantial there than just the physical, you know?
  • Wow, that was impressive! I have to say, personally it wasn't until the 2nd season finale that I became a shipper. It was the whole scene of him listening to her messages and then returning to NY. I mean, if I got a depressed voicemail from a friend of mine, I'd certainly call and say, "Are you OK?" but I wouldn't immediately travel 200 miles to get there. That's something else.

    The way the episode builds, the audience hopes that it's Jack who knocks on the door. I know I did. Well-written, Tina Fey. Well-written.

    Yes, within a few seconds, my brain ran the gamut from, "I hope that's Jack!" to, "Of course it's not Jack," to, "Oh, my God, it is!"

    I do hope they wait until the end, or maybe partway through the final season, to get them together. For one thing, I'm not interested in a drawn out "will they or won't they." And once couples get together on TV, it seems as if the producers either lamely break them up (Ross and Rachel) or they just become kinda boring (Niles and Daphne).

    • Yeah, Jack could've just called Liz on the phone to see how she was...but, he flew all the way from D.C. and showed up at her DOOR. That's definitely something else.

      They'll wait until the end. I'm pretty sure that's what Tina meant when she used the words "fight it forever" with Ryan Seacrest. She's very aware of how TV couples operate and how they can fail, which is why I think she recognizes the teasing and the prolongment.

      I'm personally okay with waiting, as long as they make it worth my time :)
  • This is a very nicely-done essay! If only michellek and I would have been able to follow that format for our manifesto on Jack/Liz. Do you mind if I link to this on the manifesto?
  • I kept meaning to post something coherent about this delightful analysis but I could never sum everything up that I wanted to say.

    I still don't have all my thoughts together but I did want to say that when Tracy said, "where is Jack Donaghy I want a different answer?" I thought of this post! His response definitely reminded me a child trying to get what he wanted from whatever parent would be most lenient.

    Anyways thanks for posting this and I'll try to write something more holistically responsive some time soon!
    • It's okay :)

      Yes! Tracy totally wanted to get DAD'S say because Mom told him NO.

      It's okay if you can't. Don't worry about it. Thanks for reading!
  • (no subject) - sterling_cooper
    • I know...I wrote a lot and I need to organize some of the points a little better, so I'm constantly editing it, but I appreciate you taking the time to read all of it.

      I'm not awesome. Tina & Co. at 30 Rock are awesome :)

      "Tina Fey should hire you on as one of 30 Rock's writers!!! =)"

      From your keyboard to their ears! LOL.
  • This is absolutely AMAZING. You are awesome for writing this. Its so clever and so true! I'd have never realised heaps of the points you bring up here. Its helped me understand things so much better!

    • I'm trying to keep it updated as the season progresses. I need to write more on Stewart and Elisa and update with some of that great stuff from "Retreat to Move Forward".

      I have my work cut out for me with all the stand-ins this season and am prepping myself already for for Jon Hamm's appearance because from what I've read, he's going to be playing a divorcee', which, go figure...is a Jack trait :)

      I'm glad this helped you a little. I just like writing down my thoughts and seeing if there are patterns and foreshadowing, that kind of thing. I started writing all of this back in June of 2008, so it's come a long way :)
  • I got bored, so I thought I'd re-read some Jack/Liz stuff. :)

    About Liz's idea of a perfect relationship -- I think what she meant by a relationship "12 years in" is like being in an old-married-couple kind of relationship, when you "don't have to try anymore". Which is perfect, actually, because Jack and Liz's friendship is just so easy and comfortable now, and is already second nature to them.
    • Friend, come back and re-read this anytime. I'm working on updating it. I've got tons more to write about Elisa and need to add the good Dr. in as a Jack stand-in.

      I agree. I think the 12 years in is just as you described, regarding a married couple. And, yes, it's absolutely perfect for them. :)
  • So that's why he did that thing with the jewelry box *feels like a dunce*

    So many things, I think my brain will explode.

    Am I the only person who didn't really enjoy Floyd/Liz all that much? *off to the next part*
    • Bigtime Pretty Woman reference :)

      I know...it makes my brain explode when I try to update it :)

      I enjoyed Floyd/Liz for what it was, but don't think he ever has to come back (although, it's a possibility since "Succession" sort of opened/closed that door).
  • This is a great essay and I agree with everything you said; also, I love you for mentioning Harry and Hermione, because I totally agree with you on that, too.
    • Thanks for reading!

      JKR not going with H/Hr is a big mistake, but I can see the value is OBHWF, too. I've always been mixed on it, but she definitely wrote Hermione to be the perfect mate/fit for Harry. That's why his relationship with Ginny is so WTHeck-ish.
  • Great essay and analysis, loved it. I'm not inclined to do my own analysis though, so I'll leave it at that :)

    But I just have to say that I loved the bit when you mentioned Harry/Hermione... It is honestly my OTP and in a way Jack/Liz does remind me of them, especially how everyone else seems to know but they don't. I do think Jack/Liz have a better inkling than Harry/Hermione ever did though, since JKR "didn't intend" to write them in.

    Anyhow, I never knew there was so much to Jack/Liz and all of this analysis is making me want to watch the entire series again... Great job!
    • Please share your thoughts if you have some! :)

      H/Hr does remind me of Jack/Liz in a lot of ways. I get that some people feel it'd be better if they just stayed platonic like H/Hr did, but on the other hand, I felt like it was a mistake for H/Hr to stay platonic. I get what JKR was doing, but if she wanted OBHWF, she shouldn't have written H/Hr the way she did because Hermione was always > Ginny.

      Sometimes, I think JKR is a little full of crap. I think she intended for H/Hr, but gave into R/Hr. I don't know. Conspiracy theories abound...

      The thing about Jack/Liz is that they are consistently written to be dating or wanting people JUST LIKE EACH OTHER. That HAS to be intentional.

      What's funny about that in relationship to HP? Hermione always wanted a hero, quidditch player and what did JKR have to do with Ron? Make him a hero, quidditch player :)

      Thanks for reading and commenting! You should totally rewatch if you haven't :)
  • I just re-read this for shits and lols. One other thing about The Ones I found interesting was that, when they were in the jewelry store, Jack said Liz was, "not the bride" instead of "not The One" indicating Liz wasn't his bride at the time, but could still be "The One". Just my take.
    • Ooh, good call on the wording in "The Ones"!

      Jack not turning Liz down as "the one" is interesting considering Colleen thought she WAS "the one" in "Hiatus" :)

      Mind if I add that thought into the essay?
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